The Legacy of Madeleine Kunin
–A Roadmap for Redefining Power
By Rickey Gard Diamond
The Honorable Madeleine May Kunin, February 2005, "Politics
is fun. That's not talked about very much."
photo credit Margaret Michniewicz
Governor Madeleine Kunin wrote Vermont Woman a letter of congratulations
when we first began publishing in September of 1985. Those were exciting
times with lots of women’s “firsts.” We
counted ourselves among the first generation of publications to be
owned and run by women. Earlier that same year, Kunin had been inaugurated
the first woman Governor in Vermont.
We were immensely proud of the Governor’s support then and
continue today to aspire to her wish for us, to provide information
and support for “the indomitable spirit” of Vermont women.
In this interview, twenty years after she first wrote that letter
of encouragement, Rickey Gard Diamond asked Madeleine Kunin to look
back and reflect on her legacy.
Vermont Woman You open your memoir, Living a Political Life, with your decision
not to run for a fourth gubernatorial term. By then you’d served
for 17 years, first as a Representative from Burlington, then as
Lt. Governor and Governor. The question you say you continually faced
was whether you were “as strong as a man.” Do you think
your successors, Governors Snelling, Dean, and Douglas, have faced
comparisons to the standard you set as a woman, building a more inclusive
and egalitarian government?
Madeleine Kunin I think we did set a standard. Definitely for appointing women.
Governor Dean kept a lot of the women that I had appointed. I haven’t
added up the numbers of women in the Douglas administration. I don’t
think it’s as high as Dean’s record, but it certainly
has become more commonplace to have women serve in top positions
in government. You know, in 1984, when I was elected, there were
a whole group of women who were eminently qualified, but still their
credentials were different from the men who had preceded them. What
I was able to do was broaden the definition of qualifications.
Vermont Woman What do you mean by “different credentials?”
Madeleine Kunin Consider Betsy Costle, for instance. She took time off to have
children before she went back to law school. So there were these
blank years in her resume. She was home raising her children. Some
people might look at that as wasted time, or non-productive time,
but that was simply a stage that so many women go through. And you
learn skills as a parent and as a part of a volunteer community.
Mollie Beattie had no administrative experience when she was appointed
to head Forests, Parks and Recreation, but she was an excellent forester
and turned out later to head the federal Fish & Wildlife administration.
Gretchen Morse, I knew her as an excellent legislator, and I’d
watched her. I’d watched her shepherd a bill and I knew her
as a person. She turned out to be a great Secretary of Health and
Human Services. So I just took some chances, and all of the chances
I took were rewarded by some outstanding people. Women often bring
different backgrounds than their male equivalents because of interruptions
in their lives. They might not have a lot of administrative background
on their resumes, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be
good administrators.
On May 3, 1982, Lt. Governor Madeleine Kunin announced her candidacy for the Democratic nomination for Governor.
Courtesy Vermont Historical Society
Vermont Woman You talk about that in your book, the role family life played
in your own development for living a political life. I love your
idea that politics is nothing more than taking your personal experience
and transforming it into a public agenda. You’ve been teaching
at UVM and St. Michael’s most recently. What of young people’s
experience needs to become part of a public agenda?
Madeleine Kunin Each generation has to set its own agenda. I think some of the
issues keep coming back, though. We still haven’t solved some
of the issues that were there 20 years ago, like childcare. There’s
still a scarcity of good childcare. It’s always up to the woman
to find it. The whole issue of violence against women is still powerful.
And economic issues are important for women, as women are in the
workforce to stay now, most of them. So I look at my students and
it’s hard to know. I think they don’t realize the battles
we fought; they assume a lot of freedoms and opportunities they have
are just there. They don’t think feminism is an issue.
I do see a level of self-confidence and a level of ambition that
my generation didn’t have, and I think that’s exciting.
It’s become so mainstream. Young women do think they’ll
do something significant with their lives. What none of us knew before
hand, for those of us who had children, was that this would be complicated!
Vermont Woman [Laughter] True. That’s linked to another question. When
you were first elected to the House, it was 1972. You were a mother
of four, and at the time there were 17 women in the Legislature.
Do you think it’s easier or harder for women to be elected
today?
Madeleine Kunin Oh, easier!
Vermont Woman That was part of what you said you wanted as your legacy, you
wanted to encourage women to serve in public office.
Madeleine Kunin Yes. There’s Gaye Symington, for instance, elected as
Speaker of the House, and getting very high marks for her role as
Speaker. Consuelo Northrop Bailey did it 50 years ago, so it took
another 50 years to repeat her achievement, but still 33% of the
Vermont Legislature today is female.
The parade route was instructive. After whizzing by a line of faces, blurred
into anonymity, the parade would slow down and a face or two would come
into focus. I spotted a woman standing on her porch. Our eyes met, and we
exchanged the knowing glances of silent women. She raised both arms in the
air, I held mine out and
carried her smile like a gift in my hand . . .
I will do it, I will do it, I said to myself. I will win for her and for
me.
From Kunin's book "Living a Political Life"
Vermont Woman That’s among the highest rates in the nation.
Madeleine Kunin Double check that. There are other states that have high rates,
too, like Washington. [A former reporter with The Burlington Free
Press, Gov. Kunin is right: Seven states have a third women in their
state legislatures: Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Washington and Vermont.
Delaware has 33.9% and Maryland has 34%.]
In fact, there’s an interesting contrast between red states
and blue states, with blue states averaging 22 percent women and
red states closer to 10 percent.
I think the doors are wide open. I really think there is no gender
issue in the state legislatures. I don’t think there is a major
gender issue in the Congress, even though we only have 14% women
there. I think the biggest obstacle to electing more women
to Congress is money and incumbency. When 98% of the members of Congress
get re-elected, there’s not much hope for any newcomer, in
terms of the system. I think the family issues are still tougher
for women politicians, especially if you have to move or commute.
The biggest question comes up when you talk about the presidency.
People still ask whether a woman can be president, as if it would
take a miracle! So many other countries have had women presidents,
countries that are much less democratic than we are.
I think the family issues are still tougher for women politicians,
especially if you have to move or commute.
The hardest part for women politicians at the national level is
the question of national security. A woman has to be tough to inspire
confidence on national security. It’s just instinctively a
male issue. Look at Condoleezza Rice. She can manage it because she
is tough and conservative. She handles herself very well. But it’s
harder for a progressive woman to step into those shoes. But in some
cases, on some issues, women have an advantage: healthcare, education,
the environment. Admittedly those are the “softer” issues,
but they are also issues that people care a lot about.
Vermont Woman It’s funny the way we use these terms, “softer,” and
associate that quality with women, the same way you describe our
associating men with security.
Madeleine Kunin Yes, and studies show that men and women think this way.
Vermont Woman You compared politics to a game of chess. As much as you wanted
to believe that consensus and negotiation and collaboration were
more valuable than confrontation, from the beginning, your political
life was a battle. It had to be, you said. Do you think this has
changed at all?
Madeleine Kunin I think it’s gotten nastier. Certainly on the national
level. It’s gotten tougher in Vermont, too, but nowhere near
as difficult as it is nationally and internationally. There’s
more partisanship, more divisiveness—like the whole division
into red states and blues states, that being a part of our vocabulary
now.
Vermont Woman That’s why the question about whether you thought it was
harder or easier to run.
Madeleine Kunin It’s easier because women are no longer the “firsts.” It’s
always harder to be first, and there are more role models now. It
is somewhat harder because money has become a bigger issue and conflict
has become a bigger issue. What surprises me nationally is that the
figure has been 22% for the last six years. It hasn’t gone
up, it’s just stagnant.
On March 5th,
the Vermont Commission on Women will kick off its Vermont Women’s
History Project this year with recognition of the 20th Anniversary of the
Kunin Administration.
The project seeks to discover and highlight the critical roles women have
played here in Vermont, as well as in our nation’s history. Governor
Kunin will give the project’s first address at The Pavilion Auditorium
in Montpelier, 2:00 p.m.
The event is free and open to the public. A reception and Vermont History
Museum
Open House will follow.
Vermont Woman Like a glass ceiling?
Madeleine Kunin Yes, it hasn’t gone up. The idea was that every year you’d
add up a little more, but that hasn’t happened. Where we have
seen some change is with women cabinet members. What’s interesting
is Condoleezza Rice following Madeleine Albright, and there was no
open debate about her being a woman and no open debate about her
being African-American. So regardless of what you think about her
views on Iraq and Iran, that’s an achievement.
Vermont Woman It has seemed to some of us that in the 20 years since your
administration, there’s been a rush to saying, yes, of course,
women are equal now, without giving credit to accomplishments you
and your team brought about. At times, I’ve felt slighted on
your behalf. Have you ever felt this?
Madeleine Kunin I don’t feel slighted. At this point in my life I don’t
need public applause. I’ve moved on. But I do feel that perhaps
there isn’t enough recognition of some of the changes we did
make and of the women who did serve. You never know what’s
going to last in politics. Different times produce different analysis.
I felt satisfaction the other day, in a class I taught at UVM. There
was an older woman who was a Reach Up graduate. Reach Up was a welfare
reform bill that we passed that enabled her to go back to school.
And meeting her and hearing her story gave me a thrill. People talk
about the Vermont Housing & Conservation Trust Fund, which we
started, and I know that’s done some good things, in terms
of preserving open farmland and affordable housing. So that’s
the sort of satisfaction I gain. Who knows how things will look a
hundred years from now? Sometimes it takes more time to look back.
Vermont Woman That brings up another interesting thing you’ve said about
the seduction of power. Do you see this at work in the political
landscape today?
Madeleine Kunin Sure. Anyone who has held a position of power is reluctant to
give it up. It gives you a platform, a voice, and that gives you
a sense of who you are in the world, a sense of potentially having
an impact on events. But I always wanted to reserve part of myself
as a private person, too. I never wanted my whole self-image to depend
on the next election. Now I enjoy having a voice by doing commentaries
on public radio, through teaching, and the NGO (Non-Governmental
Organization) I founded, The Institute for Sustainable Communities.
So there are lots of ways of having an impact.
I had an impact as Ambassador to Switzerland, addressing the whole
question of the Holocaust victims and their bank accounts in Swiss
banks. That was a new challenge. I had to come to terms with my Jewish
identity, my Swiss past. You can have an impact in an appointed position.
Vermont Woman There was another appointed position. You had been “the
education governor” in Vermont and then came to Washington
as Deputy Director of Education.
Madeleine Kunin I compare it to being the big fish in a small pond, to becoming
a small fish in big pond. That was a very exciting time, being part
of Washington in the Clinton administration. I learned a tremendous
amount about this country. Vermont is not representative of the United
States when it comes to education. I was at first deeply shocked
by what I saw of the poverty in many areas of the country. Not just
little pockets, but most urban areas have extreme poverty for children.
I was exposed to a world I had never seen. But then I also saw some
wonderful schools, even in poor areas. The contrast between the suburban
and the urban schools made me feel it was so unjust. This is one
of the reasons equal funding is so important. From my own background,
it was access to education that made it possible for me to develop
my potential. I’m still a great believer in the transforming
powers of education.
Vermont Woman What do you point to as your most satisfying accomplishment
there?
Madeleine Kunin I worked on standards for education, vocational education, educational
technology and educating girls in math and science. So it was a wide
variety of things. I tried to take models of schools that worked,
of programs that worked, and get them duplicated. I gave teachers
encouragement, teachers who work under very tough circumstances.
Some just don’t get recognition, so if I could uplift an audience,
that was an accomplishment.
Vermont Woman At one point, you said the secret of political success was building
alliances with the sources of power while holding onto your personal
convictions. You often spoke about the division you had to create
within yourself to live a public life, and just now you said you
always wanted to reserve a private part of yourself. So, for a young
woman in politics today, wanting to take your advice, how would you
invite her to think about this?
Madeleine Kunin Really my advice is quite simple. Get involved. Don’t
be a bystander to the events of your time. Getting involved is easier
than people think. I take some of my inspiration, or motivation,
from the experience of the Holocaust. Even though my immediate family
was not affected by the Holocaust, my aunts and uncles were, and
I feel that when you see injustice, if you can possibly do it, you
should speak up. We still have that opportunity in the United States.
When I was in Switzerland, which is a democracy, I realized that
in other ways there was not that same opportunity for the individual
citizen to make a difference, or for newcomers to make a difference.
Vermont Woman Why is that?
Madeleine Kunin There are a lot of immigrants in Switzerland, but none of them
are elected to the Parliament. That opportunity to bridge class and
ethnic barriers isn’t there. The outsider is the outsider.
The American Dream isn’t perfect, but it’s still powerful,
more powerful than any other country. So I’m still an optimist
about that, and I encourage people to take action. On whatever level
they feel comfortable. I’m not saying everybody should run
for office, but at least be informed and engaged. I think women in
particular still haven’t tested their full potential.
Vermont Woman Was this part of the reason you began the Institute for Sustainable
Communities?
Madeleine Kunin I had gone to Bulgaria as an election observer, and I saw the
poignancy of their optimism about democracy and I thought, they’re
going to need help to make this come true. So that’s one of
the reasons we founded the Institute. But I also wanted to test what
you can do outside of government. I guess I still wanted to figure
out a way to have an impact. That’s part of why I wrote the
book, Living a Political Life. I wanted people to have a realistic
picture of what it’s like and that it can be done.
I feel really privileged—you know, it sounds clichéd,
but I do—that I had these opportunities. We hear all the bad
side of politics. There’s too much money, too much conflict,
there’s corruption, and all of those things are true. But it’s
still absolutely fascinating, in terms of the intellectual challenges
you face, the problem-solving you do, the broad spectrum of people
you meet. It’s a rich way to live, like having a peanut butter
sandwich every night, or going to a banquet. You can live in a very
narrow sphere, or you can broaden your experiences broadly. Politics
is fun. That’s not talked about very much.
Vermont Woman Your memoir included a much more intimate look at the emotional
experience of being in politics. Was that deliberate on your part?
Madeleine Kunin Yes. I heard Jill Kerr Conway and Carolyn Heilbrun speak, and
after that I read Heilbrun’s Writing a Woman’s Life.
I used her definition of power in the opening of my book. [It says, “Power
is the ability to take one’s place in whatever discourse is
essential to action and the right to have one’s part matter.
This is true in the Pentagon, in marriage, in friendship, and in
politics.”] There aren’t many books by women that realistically
describe their road to success. Women tend to gloss over the struggle
and attribute a lot of things to luck. Almost like a romance: you
fell in love, you fell into this leadership role.
In truth, most women who end up in leadership, whether in the private
sector or the public sector, had ambition, had a vision, and had
to work for it. They had conflicts. I wanted to write about that
realistically. You need a road map. Men have written a lot of books
about that, and I think women are beginning to write that way now,
but there still is a tendency. If you listen to successful women
today, they’ll still do it. I wanted to write as honest a book
as I could.
Vermont Woman What do you hope for the Women’s History Project that
you’re a part of? Is it at all unsettling to look back on your
life and see history?
Madeleine Kunin [Laughter] It is sobering. But women have to tell their stories.
We need to learn their stories. That’s why women’s history
is so important. We learn through stories. We model ourselves after
the stories we hear, we all do that, women and men. We have to know
women’s stories, we have to understand them. And women have
to be willing to tell them.
Rickey Gard Diamond is Contributing Editor to Vermont Woman, and
was founding editor of Vermont Woman the first in 1985. She lives
and writes in Montpelier.
Bankowski, Morse, and Soule Reflect
By Mary Fratini
Liz Bankowski, Kunin’s Campaign Manager and Chief of Staff
“I may have been only the second woman to run a statewide campaign
for governor. Madeleine running as a woman broke a gender barrier; no
one thought it was a great idea to have a woman run her campaign.
“One of the most important elements of seeing women in important
positions is that a whole generation of women, when they look at where
important decisions are being made, see people who look like them. You
can’t gauge the power of that.
“When Madeleine took office, not all Vermont children had access
to kindergarten. That’s the very first thing she did. Her commitment
to children and education, and the environment, were hallmarks. Vermont
became a national leader in environmental conservation [and] over the
course of her administration people came to see that a good environment
and educational platform were critical elements of Vermont’s economic
development.”
Sallie Soule, was Commissioner of Employment and Training
“One of her most enduring contributions was the establishment of
a welfare reform program, which included various components of vocational
training, education, and childcare services for single parents (mostly
women) so that these individuals could be more self sufficient.
“…I regret that many of us who worked for her at that time
perhaps did not do enough to convince her to run for a fourth term.”
Gretchen Morse, was Secretary of the Agency of Human Services
“There was a conscious effort on Madeleine’s part to make
sure there was a ‘critical mass’ of women in her administration
and she took some risks putting people in leadership positions to make
that happen.
“She was the first governor to place a tremendous amount of money
into childcare. She understood what women, particularly low-income women,
needed in order to be successful in the workforce.
“Madeleine had a vision for Vermont and was willing to use her
position to advance that vision. You don’t see people extending
themselves with that kind of courage in the political arena today.”
A printer friendly version of this article is available.
Vermont Woman is a forum for news, issues, features, arts and entertainment from the perspective, experience, and voices of Vermont women. Vermont Woman is a monthly newspaper published in South Burlington, Vermont and is excerpted here on this site. All content ©Copyright 2005, Vermont Woman Publishing
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