The World, According to Garp’s Creator:

A Conversation with Novelist John Irving

By Margaret Michniewicz

photo: Margaret Michniewicz

Novelist John Irving, a resident of Dorset, gave the public a sneak peek at his current work in progress, Until I Find You, to an audience gathered at the Southern Vermont Arts Center in Manchester in September. A lively on-stage conversation between Irving and fellow bestselling author and Newsday columnist Susan Cheever preceded the reading. Irving, who has been interviewed almost daily since June, says that he welcomed the change of pace and likes interviews better with an audience present than one-on-one, which can get “repetitious.”

Irving grew up in Exeter, New Hampshire, and has lived in various Vermont communities, he says, since 1967. He and his wife Janet have lived in the Manchester area since the early 1990s.

The event was a benefit by John and Janet Irving for Planned Parenthood of Northern New England, and proceeds from the evening went directly to the PPNNE Rutland Health Center for renovation expenses. “I am a New Englander, and I’ve always supported Planned Parenthood,” Irving states.

Susan Cheever is the daughter of the late author John Cheever, both of whom Irving describes as long-time friends. “Susan and I have known each other for years – through different marriages, and so forth,” Irving explains. “She still claims that we had such an argument over dinner one night that I threw a plate at her. I think it was a green bean, not a plate, but she remembers the argument better than I do. She has long been a good and generous reader of my novels, and I chose her as my interviewer because I knew she would be unafraid to ask me about anything.”

Following the September event, Irving spoke candidly with Vermont Woman about a range of topics and – we’re happy to say – no plates or green beans were airborne.

Vermont Woman

What do you identify as the source of your advocacy for reproductive choice? What role did reading your grandfather’s notes/journals have in forming your opinions on abortion?

John Irving

From the days of the founding fathers, from the times of the Puritans, abortion was legal in this country — until the fetus was what they called in those days “quick,” or showed discernible movement of its own, separate from the mother’s movement. The first state to make it illegal was Maine, with the Eastman-Everett Act of 1846. Soon thereafter, it was illegal everywhere in the U.S. The point is, it was an aberration — an abnormality — that it ever became illegal.

I heard about how wrong it was that abortions were illegal and therefore unsafe from my mother, when I was a teenager. My mother was a nurse’s aide; she worked for a family counseling service in New Hampshire, for the most part treating victims of domestic or family violence. Children having unwanted pregnancies — often because they’d been raped by their fathers or uncles or older brothers — was a big subject in the house I grew up in. Roe v. Wade was something to be celebrated.

Vermont Woman

Are there specific cases or people you’ve learned about while doing research for your novels, particularly ones based in New England, that have underscored your commitment to reproductive rights – or that have caused you to question your stance?

John Irving

People who are pro-choice are often called “pro-abortion” by the opponents of abortion rights. No one is “pro-abortion.” If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one — no one’s forcing you. No one should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, either. Freedom of religion works two ways. Yes, we are and should be free to practice the religious beliefs of our choice; but we should also be free from having someone else’s religious beliefs practiced on us. While I was doing research on The Cider House Rules, the novel, I encountered over and over again the evidence that New England orphanages frequently kept their children; many children were never adopted but became, at age 15, so-called wards of the state. Also, many doctors associated with orphanages were sympathetic to performing the abortion procedure — even at great risk to themselves and their medical practices. Doctors familiar with orphanages saw what happened (and often what didn’t happen) to those children left in orphanages. They were more sympathetic to women in that plight.

I’ve seen a lot of babies being born. Men who believe in legislating against abortion rights should watch a few child-births. It’s a painful experience, but it’s a great experience — provided it’s a wanted child. What man with a conscience wants to put women through the experience of childbirth when that child is unwanted?

Vermont Woman

You said in Manchester that when you wrote The Cider House Rules you perceived the topic of abortion as an historical issue, given that it seemed an established law without threat of being overturned. Since then, it is held up as a “Pro-choice” novel and film, but that wasn’t primarily your intention for writing the story, correct? What was? What ideas did you wish to bring forth? For those who have only seen the film adaptation, what are some of the key elements of the novel that they are missing by only seeing the movie?

John Irving

My primary reason for writing The Cider House Rules was to create a father-son relationship between an orphanage physician, who was himself childless, and an unadoptable orphan. I discovered the prevailing abortion issue in my historical research. I was happy to include it in the novel — more than include it! It became a central area of conflict between Dr. Larch and Homer Wells; of course there are other areas, but the abortion subject made Cider House a polemical or didactic novel. I didn’t shy away from that; the abortion issue was historically accurate, and it gave the story of the novel both an emotional and a political edge.

The film is faithful to the spirit of the novel, and certainly faithful to the novel’s abortion politics. There is much more substance and detail in the novel than in the film, but I am as proud of that film as I am of the novel.

Vermont Woman

You cited Roger Ebert as one of a number of critics who brought their stance on the pro-choice issue into their critique of The Cider House Rules. If you are writing about a political issue, is it not fair game? Explain your objection to how such critics have taken on your work.

John Irving

Roger Ebert certainly has a right to object to The Cider House Rules, the film, because he objects to the film’s abortion politics, which differ from his own. But he didn’t say so in his review. He professed to not liking other aspects of the film — as a film — and only revealed that he was opposed to abortion in a letter he wrote to Miramax chief, Harvey Weinstein, defending his review of the film. He complained about Mr. Rose being portrayed as sympathetic despite the fact that he impregnates his own daughter. Ebert should know that it is a novel’s job, and also a film’s job, to make every major character human — and therefore sympathetic. But at least Ebert revealed what his extreme prejudice was in the case of incest. He didn’t say he was right to life, except privately. That’s just being dishonest, but many book-reviewers and film critics are.

Once again: let’s look at the difference between pro-choice and so-called right to life. I would never presume to tell Roger Ebert’s wife or daughter that she must have or should have an abortion. It’s her choice. But Mr. Ebert has no qualms telling my wife, or one of my daughters-in-law, that she must have or should have a baby. Big difference.

Vermont Woman

Do you have comments on the current political climate as it relates to freedom of artistic expression? Have you had negative experiences due to any political stance you have taken?

John Irving

Of my eleven published novels, only two were what I would call “political” — both The Cider House Rules  and A Prayer for Owen Meany. Surely people who differ with my abortion politics, or with my view of the wrongfulness of the Vietnam War, would have a hard time liking those novels — and by association they might be predisposed to dislike whatever I write. But all eleven of my novels are graphic, visually described novels; I love detail. And much of the detail is sexual — explicitly, graphically, even (at times) perversely sexual. That’s a big subject with me — and with humankind. Prudes won’t like my writing, but few who have taken offense at my chosen subjects will ever admit that they are offended. Dishonesty again.

Vermont Woman

What do you make of the surprise some Americans have expressed, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, that others perceive the disaster as an example of continuing racial oppression, or racist structure, in the United States?

John Irving

The people who are surprised at those who perceive the Hurricane Katrina disaster as a racial issue — and/or a poverty issue — have their heads in the sand. I suppose they’re the same people who think the president is doing a good job, or that the war in Iraq was against “terror” — when in fact it was (and continues to be) a distraction from the war against terror. We should have been targeting those known terrorist groups, not a secular dictatorship.

Vermont Woman

What are your thoughts on the recent comments made by former Education Secretary William Bennett’s remarks linking the crime rate and the abortion of African-American babies?

John Irving

Bennett’s bullying conservatism and his anti-abortion agenda make him reprehensible, but his remarks linking the crime rate with the abortion of African-American babies were taken out of context. The truth is, the crime rate has gone down — I’m not talking about the black crime rate or the white crime rate, I’m saying the overall crime rate has dropped — since Roe v. Wade. Period. Can we not conclude that people, since 1973, are having fewer unwanted babies? Can we not conclude that more unwanted babies lead to more neglected and uncared for children, and that these children — white or black — may grow up to be criminals? Pediatricians point out that they are seeing much healthier and well-adjusted children. Period. I blame Bennett for a lot of things; of course the racism of his remark is offensive. But the linking of the crime rate to abortion rights — well, I think there’s a connection. Pediatricians would probably see a connection. Would William Bennett care to tell me what’s good about unwanted babies? Good for whom?

Vermont Woman

You spoke in Manchester of how you begin a novel with the last line. How does this last line of The Cider House Rules encapsulate the essence of the story that subsequently came to precede it?

“To Nurse Edna, who was in love, and to Nurse Angela, who wasn’t (but who had in her wisdom named both Homer Wells and Fuzzy Stone), there was no fault to be found in the hearts of either Dr. Stone or Dr. Larch, who were – if there ever were – Princes of Maine, Kings of New England.”

John Irving

Cider House is a sad, dysfunctional tale with a triumphant ending. Homer Wells may have wanted to leave St. Cloud’s — for good reason. But he returns to St. Cloud’s for a better reason. That nothing is wrong with his heart or Dr. Larch’s is the argument the book presents. Homer also thinks he has a heart defect, which Larch tells him to keep him out of the war. And both men have achieved the status of Princes of Maine and Kings of New England, the phrase that Larch uses as a nightly benediction to the orphans — who are, of course, anything but.

Vermont Woman

And this powerful question that is asked by Dr. Larch: “You think what I do is playing God, but you presume you know what God wants. Do you think that’s not playing God?” At what point in the writing of the novel did this line emerge?

John Irving

Oh, early on — the line about playing God was central, and I got it early on.

Vermont Woman

The first indication in the film The Cider House Rules that abortion was happening at the orphanage is through the eyes of Homer, as he is sent to the incinerator with a bucket after an operation performed by Dr. Larch, and it becomes apparent there has been an abortion performed; his reaction is disgust at his otherwise beloved guardian. Explain why the audience is introduced to the issue in this way.

John Irving

Readers are introduced to Homer’s discovery of an actual fetus early in the novel, too, although not as early as in the film, when it’s the very first scene following the opening credits. I wanted to establish Homer’s reluctance to see that fetus as Larch sees it from the start. The look on Homer’s face when he looks in the operating room pail and then puts the lid back on — well, that’s a hard-to-capture look, and that’s why Tobey Maguire got that part.

Vermont Woman

You’re pretty rough on your audience – Rose’s father is portrayed so nobly, and it’s devastating when we find that Rose is pregnant by him. You didn’t let us off easy by constructing a situation in which she was raped by a stranger, and therefore Homer could have perhaps equal ease of conscience performing the operation as he did given that it was incest…. Your comments?

John Irving

I am pretty rough on my audience, on my readers, etc. My stories are about people who’ve had devastating things happen to them; they won’t always be able to recover. There’s a certain shock value to what I write. “Woe to him who seeks to please, rather than appall.” That’s my fellow New Englander Herman Melville talking. I subscribe to that. I don’t write about “nice” things. As a father, I certainly want to protect my children from those awful aspects of the so-called real world that proliferate to excess in my novels. But in my novels, I’m a troublemaker. I make things go wrong. That’s my job!

Vermont Woman

What advice do you have for our readers who are concerned about reproductive rights?

John Irving

For your readers who are concerned with reproductive rights, I say be involved. Help Planned Parenthood, write your senators, stand up in opposition to those people who would tell others what to do with such an important and deeply private part of their lives.

Vermont Woman

In the notes to The Cider House Rules, you write “ether is a perfect drug addiction for a conservative.” Please explain!

John Irving

As for ether being “the perfect drug for a conservative,” I was just fooling around; what that means is it’s hard to kill yourself, or anyone else, with ether. It’s a pretty friendly inhalant, despite making a lot of people feel sick and as if they were falling off a cliff; that was because it was overused. An accident like Dr. Larch’s is about the only lethal mistake you can make with ether.

Vermont Woman

What are your thoughts on assisted suicide and the right to die issue?

John Irving

People should have the right to die with dignity. It was hideous how the government intervened in the Schiavo case. And now we’re starting up the “intelligent design” debate, again. I think we should consider a third alternative to evolution or intelligent design; given what a mess the world is in, how about considering “unintelligent design”?

Vermont Woman

Anything you wish someone would ask you and never has?

John Irving

No, I can’t think of anything I would like to be asked. But I am amused by how many people ask me why I don’t use a computer, or why I write in longhand and still use an old-fashioned typewriter. I like what Nietzche said. “Our writing tools are also working on our thoughts.”